Video: Treo's Memory issue causing EVDO to be capped? We think so!

Just wanted to leave a little note that a new ROM and firmware will eventually be released for the Treo 700w.

I've installed a pre-release version of these files onto the Treo 700w and they have made a significant impact.

I have no idea when the new firmware/rom package will be released but I do know that some 3rd party application companys out there are waiting for this package to be released as well.

I have a Sprint 6700 and a VZW RAZR, so I have a few comments. Regarding who is the "better" carrier, it is a matter of perspective. I live in Buffalo NY and Sprint has had EVDO for several months now while VZW is still "coming soon". Sprint, like VZW, also has excellent coverage and good building penetration. VZW's only advantage is in the boonies whereas with Sprint you are roaming. But at least roaming is free. Considering price differences, Sprint is clearly the better value. But in another city, VZW may be far better and worth the extra costs.

I noticed that VZW's EVDO overage started in a few major metropolitan centers and expanded along the interstates towards the smaller cities and towns. For instance, EVDO hit New York/Boston corridor and expanded west along the I90. So Buffalo is still about 30 miles short of an EVDO signal.

Sprint on the other hand started with cities, both large and small and is filling in the spaces along the interstates at a later date. IMO this is the better way because more communities get EVDO quicker. In VZW's method, what good is EVDO on the thruways when my city is still waiting? I don't live and work in the middle of farmland on a thruway - because that's where VZW's closest EVDO signal is for me :)

I just performed the dslreports/mspeed test 10 times here in the DC area and my results ranged from 467 kbps to 783 kbps.

Dave, out of curiosity, have you performed the registry hack that redirects PIE cache/history/etc to the storage card? I have on my phone and that might be the difference since the SDCard flash RAM is substantially faster than the internal flash ROM.

Just a thought.

Verizon i730
free ram: 3.75 storage, 5.56 program

200k test - unstable/too fast...

600k test
905 kbit/sec
0.65 latency
5.739s d/l time

ran a few times and the speed bounced around between 815 and 975

Not sure how valuable one more comment is on this, but I ran five DSL reports speed tests just now on my 700w - the tests ranged from 399k to up to 599k.
All good here.

I have seen performance issues with Internet speeds via PIE when the amount of 'Storage Memory' is below 10 MB on the Sprint PPC 6700 and some other devices, but nothing related to the amount of 'Program Memory'. What is the amount of 'Storage Memory' that you have available on your device?

Barring the above being a quick fix, I would say that if you are going to get to the bottom of what the cause is, it would be advantageous to be comparing apples to apples, as well as taking out as many variables from the system under investigation.

Regarding reduction of variables. Dave, you would need to see if this issue is occurring from a hard reset with NO other software installed other than the factory ROM software. This will show whether or not the issue is resulting from the manufacturer or the result of some software conflict.

I would test it right after the hard reset with no other applications running in the 'Running Programs' control panel and then I would try the test with the pre-loaded factory programs running to the point that there is only 9 MB left in 'Program Memory'.

If you are having the issue after the hard reset with no other programs installed, then I would try to get my hands on a Verizon XV6700 to compare the Verizon signal strength in the SAME location where you are having issues with the Treo. This would eliminate the service variable for your exact situation, vs someone else's accounting of their experience in their own location with their own devices.

Good luck.

You tube is definitely down!!! Video should be back up asap! If not I will have to upload it as a Quicktime video

Well Palm hasn't answered the memory problem

http://forums.palm.com/pe/action/forums/displaypost?postID=20270076&returnExpertiseCode=

Dave:
With my previous k-jam, i ran into some significant radio issues that were a result of some programs and built up notifications in the device. it got to the point that i would go 15-20 minutes without service. A hard reset solved this very frustrating problem.

Can you do a hard reset on your treo and not install any additional programs and run the test again? just a thought...

Being discussed in two threads over at treocentral.com hopefully the moderators will combine them:

http://discussion.treocentral.com/showthread.php?t=110442
http://discussion.treocentral.com/showthread.php?t=110569

I don't buy the memory issue theory. My Treo 700W has 5.08MB free (using DinarSoft HandyMenu to get to Memory settings) and my DSLreports.com Mobile Speed Test results were 731kbit/sec .548s latency and 7.03s d/l time (first pass) 749kbit/sec .503s latency and 6.91s d/l time (second pass) - no issues here.

Dave,

Let's do a little investigative work.

Do you have memMaid or SKTools? Can you provide a screenshot of the active processes on your device. I am not talking about running programs. Let's see if we kill some unecessary process (like I mentioned below) to free up some memory if that makes a different. If we can get you up to about 12-14 mb of RAM and see what's going on, that would help tremendously. If mem is not the issue,then it's the crappy Palm Treo implementation.

However, to find out, you might need to do a little detective work yourself. I wouldn't leave it to Palm alone.

Let us know.

I get 15.17 MB's free after a soft reset.

This is my second Treo actually..

David,

Have you tried this from more than one Treo? I've owned one, I've got access to about 5 more, and none of them show the consistently low bandwidth you're talking about.

Jerry 9MB is the total amount I have available after a soft reset. I Iaunch IE i am below 9mb. Remember the radio in the TREO is totally different than the 6700 with Verizon. TOTALLY! I know this for a fact.

Someone still needs to explain to a professional software application developer (like myself) how 9mb of memory is not enough to perform a memory speed test with just a browser running and some other system processes. Someone also needs to explain to me on why this doesn't also seem to be an issue on the 6700 (if it is then it makes things more undstandable).

Who writes the EVDO drivers? If the EVDO driver is indeed inefficient (which really shouldn't be affected by the amount of free ram), then is it safe to assume that each OEM is responsible for writing and implementing it's own version of the driver? I think this is why Palm had so much trouble implementing a EVDO driver into the 650 due to the kludgy Palm OS.

If my thoughts are correct, it's not a memory issue at all but just a lousy implementation of a first cut at an EVDO driver.

Waiting for a response..... Also, you don't have to "spoon" feed the answer. Be as technical as possible.

I just opened up 18 apps on my XV6700 which left 8.1 MB of program memory available, which is close to the 9 MB free that the Treo has in roughly a best case. I ran the Mobile speed test before and after doing this and there was little difference. 817 kbit/sec
0.485s latency
6.314s d/l time with 8 meg free. The first test run with 23 Meg free: 799 kbps. My vote is for a radio or firmware issue on the Treo.

Stimey I appreciate your support but I dont want to make this a finger pointing issue but I want to open SOMEONE'S eyes to this issue might it be due to Verizon or Palm. But a very reputable developer WebIS seems to see a memory EVDO issue!

http://www.pocketinformant.com/Forums/index.php?showtopic=8497

Everyone tell me how much available memory you have when you do the test.

Dave,
I'm in a suburb of Philadelphia. I just ran the Speed test after a soft reset and got 852 kbt/sec on the
treo 700w. I got this at least 5 different times.

I just ran the same DslReports speed test from my xv6700 and got

817kbit/sec
0.425s latency
6.27sec d/l time

test 2

576kbit/sec.

I will be at a client tomorrow where 2 guys there have 700's. I will try some more side by side tests there.

-D

This is not a memory problem. I have the verizon evdo broadband card and have had problems playing music from my rhapsody. Verizon shuts down the card when you are downloading a high amount of data.

So let's prove it once and for all. Try your speed test immediately after a soft reset. Before doing so, kill all unecessary tasks like poutlook, activesync, tmail, etc. Run your speed test.

If your theory is correct, your speeds should be significantly faster.

Now run a few apps (voice command, AS, etc). Run your speed test. If your theory is correct,then your numbers should be way down.

I don't think memory is the issue. It just doesn't make sense. Maybe because I am an application developer. Maybe the EVDO driver is not optimized. but that would mean the 6700 would suffer the same problems.

Remember when you are experiencing your issues, you state that you still have around 9mb of memory free. If all you are doing is a simple speed browser test, 9mb is plenty. If you tell me you're down to 1mb of free memory, that's a different story.

Stimey I truly think its a memory issue causing the EVDO to stall dramatically. This unit never has more than 9mb available.

David I also know ActiveSync requires approximately 6 MB of free ram. This is why I ditched the Treo, repetitive miss syncs to my Exchange Server did it for me. Palm and Verizon know the problems its just they dont want to admit them! Case point!!! I am glad you finally opened your eyes to see what some of us have been dealing with.

Just ran the test on my 700w
699 kbs

Sounds like you should replace your phone or Verizon has a tapped the network...

Please understand my point, something is drastically different radio wise in the 700w than the 6700;730 etc... I have been told by Palm that *228 needs to be done every two weeks to update the prl's.. Now I had the I730 and never had to update the prl's every two weeks. For some reason might it be the memory leaks the 700w has or a less powerful radio in the phone.

This bears repeating, bandwidth at any given time is totally dependent on exactly where you are and the status of the network and signal strength. There are too many factors that can affect bandwidth to definitively state what the cause is.

David, with all due respect I think your barking up the wrong tree.

The Treo 700w is not capped from the test results I have run. They are the same as the Samsung SCH-i730. This is in Orange County California.

Something is wrong with your device... i just did the test and got:

789 kbit/sec

0.676s latency
6.756s d/l time.

Wish I had a video camera to show my own results...

Just because Sprint and Verizon both use CDMA doesn't mean that there are roaming agreements in place and being that there is bad blood between both companies the chances of one helping the other regardless of coverage or financial are slim to none.

I'm on the road all day, so I'm in the perfect testing environment. I ran the Mobile speed test from DSLReports.com on my XV6700 with Verizon's EVDO and got the following results: 910 kbit/sec
0.429s latency
5.703s d/l time

ok I just ran it in a 1x location...ppc6700 324.5 kilobits per second treo 62.3 kilobits per second..I think this has to do with a issue with the treo.

I recently ran a speed test from my PPC-6700 while at work. A co-worker wanted to know how fast the EVDO connection was. I used www.bandwidthplace.com to do the test. These are the results from that test.

Communications 947.9 kilobits per second
Storage 115.7 kilobytes per second
1MB file download 8.9 seconds
Subjective rating Good

After seeing this news item today I ran the test again. These are the reading from today.

Communications 707.9 kilobits per second
Storage 86.4 kilobytes per second
1MB file download 119 seconds
Subjective rating Good

I live in North side of Metro Atlanta, about 30 miles outside of the city. I live between Atlanta and Athens, the city where the University of Georgia is, so it is a large corridor for EVDO coverage.

I have been a Sprint customer since 1999. When I first signed up their coverage was just as spotty as every other cell company. But, over the last 3 - 4 years their coverage has been very good for me. Get good coverage in Downtown Atlanta too.

My Treo pulled down 419k on the 600kb test. I am curious to see how my brother's girlfrends Sprint 6700 does. I sold her the phone after Sprint jerked me around. Otherwise the 6700 and the 700 are excelent phones, and I dont notice the difference on the speed of the EVDO network.

shouldn't we be comparing the Verizon XV6700 and the Sprint version? Maybe it's a limitation of the treo, not of verizon.

Dave,

As I tell everyone when they are considering switching carrier, be very sure that the voice coverage is what you expect to have (in you home, travel, in buildings, etc). Sure, data plans maybe nice, but if your signal blows in Jersey or in most buildings then it's not worth a whole hill of beans.

If it was me in NYC I wouldn't touch Sprint with a ten foot pole. Members of my family, friends, etc have run like the wind away from Sprint. Way to many dead spots, dropped calls have been the motif , at least to the people I have spoken with.

Just a friendly warning.

I agree it's a bargain except that the Sprint coverage is not as good for me in Horton as Verizon. As always when dealing with cellular carriers local coverage is everything.

This is great info guys. James I agree that this is a Treo specific issue. I am totally convinced this is the smoking gun I was looking for. I am eager to see how Kevins 6700 on Verizon does. I can tell you this Sprint evdo is a bargain for fifteen bucks...

I have a Verizon Blackberry 7130e with EVDO. I ran the same 600k DSLReports speed test and it reports that the file was too small for the speed of the connection and to use a larger file.

I then tethered my 7130e to my notebook and ran a Speakeasy test in NYC at http://www.speakeasy.net/speedtest using the VZAccess Manager program with Venturi enabled. It reported 906kb down. I then ran the test again with Venturi disabled in the VZAccess program and it reported 545kb down. Ran it twice for each and results were in the same ball park both times.

If there's a Blackberry speed test that works, I can try it on the device itself.

First two tests of the Sprint network:

Sprint Phone Modem:
u/l- 24 kbps
d/l- 30 kbps

I am obviously not in a Sprint EVDO nor 1xRTT network as those are just standard cell phone transfer rates. I hope I get better bandwidth in town.

New test:

Verizon PC Card:
u/l- 133 kbps
d/l- 100 kbps

Treo modem:
u/l- 299 kbps
d/l- 78 kbps

As you can see it is very dependent on a number of things and signal strength is one of those. The Verizon network automatically steps down to 1xRTT which is much slower than EVDO, and it does so anytime the signal drops too low. I do think that Palm needs to upgrade the modem firmware but I also believe that the low memory of the Treo will adversely affect any speed test run through the browser on the Treo.

I should point out that my Verizon EVDO is on a very low signal which is bouncing back and forth between EVDO and 1xRTT so it's pretty erratic right now.

OK, I just ran side by side tests of the Verizon PC Card in a Tablet PC and the Sony U using the Treo as EVDO modem. The test results show the following:

Verizon PC Card:
upload- 870 kbps
download- 126 kbps

Treo modem:
u/l- 274 kbps
d/l- 119 kbps

This was just a once, quick off test and I am going to revisit this from time to time to see how they compare. It is possible that Palm has produced an inefficient CDMA modem that needs a firmware upgrade.

I hope to be able to give the Sprint network a good test too, but just not at my home as the signal strength is very erratic.

James,

That doesn't make sense. Even if RAM was under 10MB, the browser is already loaded into memory. The transfer of the test file is most likely going to storage memory unless Dave hacked IE to point the cache to SD.

Dave, I have watched the video now and it looks to me to be a Treo low memory problem. When I use the Treo as an EVDO modem with the Sony U I get comparable speeds as I get with my Verizon PC Card. Browsing the web is often slow on the Treo I find due to the low available memory. I don't think It's a network issue so much as a memory issue with the Treo.

Just watched the video. Wow. Great stuff! I don't blame you for being p***ed off!

Even my lowly EDGE connection seemed to better than the Treo:

200KB test

100 kbit/sec
1.199 latency
17.65 d/l time

James as you can see in the video I have the same exact signal strength. Secondly you are correct Sprint's EVDO network is not as large as Verizons but it is going to be within the next 6 months. Verizon is known to cripple devices and this video clearly shows that they are doing it now. Also why is Sprint's EVDO $15.00 and Verizon;s $44.95??? Also I can teather my unit or use Bluetooth DUN! Maybe someone from Palm or Verizon can let us know why the big difference?

The video won't play for me so I haven't seen it yet but I can tell you what I have seen. I have been testing the Sprint EVDO and trying to compare it to the Verizon network but that has been almost impossible to do conclusively. The two networks have totally different coverage areas so unless you know you are in a strong signal area for both networks then speed tests are totally incomparable. In my home for example I qet good throughput with Verizon but Sprint will only connect via 1xRTT which as you know is very slow. I will have to test it in numerous locations to form an accurate picture, and even then it will only reflect the coverage in my area.

Yeah, but I am referring to Sprint's EVDO access. Am I correct in thinking that's it's not as widely available as Verizon?

Jerry remember Sprint is CDMA which means they can use Verizon's towers when roaming. Sprint has the largest network currently. If you havent noticed Verizon is now saying the Most Reliable Network not the Largest Network any longer.


Also the Exchange Email is without AKU2 and Treo only!

Couple of issues going on here.

1. If the problem is exclusive to the Treo and not other WM5 devices (with or without AKU2) then Palm has some serious explaining to do.

2. I don't care how big Verizon's network is or how omnipresent that network guy on their commericials is, their pricing plans are and have always been rediculously high.

3. With regards to Sprint's EVDO being so cheap, it may relate to #2 and how prevalent and available it is throughout the US.

Yes, time to ditch the 32mb Palm Treo and move on.

IMHO.